Sunday, February 18, 2018
Last updated: 2 years ago
September 6, 2013, 6:07pm PST

‘N is for no consent!’

Sauder first-years led in offensive chant

By Arno Rosenfeld
Graphic Ming Wong/The Ubyssey

Graphic Ming Wong/The Ubyssey

“An actual cheer at ubc,” a Sauder School of Business first-year wrote on Twitter. “Y-O-U-N-G at UBC we like em young Y is for yourrr sister O is for ohh so tight U is for under age N is for noo consent G is for goo to jail.”

Students participating in Sauder FROSH, the long-running three-day orientation organized by the Commerce Undergraduate Society (CUS), were led in the above cheer by orientation leaders chosen by the CUS. A variation of the cheer received national attention earlier this week after students were recorded on video reciting the cheer at Saint Mary’s University in Halifax.

Jacqueline Chen, FROSH co-chair, told The Ubyssey these chants have been going on for many years. While the CUS had been chastised in the past for the cheers, Chen said the undergraduate society now works to make sure the chant stays private.

“We had problems a very long time ago with the cheers being public in a sort of way and the dean seeing,” Chen said. “We let the groups know: if it happens in the group, it has to stay in the group.”

Chen added that while it was something organizers would be prefer not happen, she said that the CUS was very concerned with keeping the chant out of the public eye.

“There’s only so much you can do with somebody who wants to publicly state something,” Chen said, “but we do get them to remove it [from social media] if we do find it…. That’s a big thing for us.”

Chen said there are serious consequences for a FROSH leader who is publicly exposed leading the chant. The punishments range from getting blacklisted from future FROSH events to being dealt with by the CUS or the school’s dean.

"As far as I know, this issue doesn’t exist. I’ve never heard anything about this before."
— Andrew Riley, Sauder spokesperson

But when the cheer doesn’t make it into the public eye, Chen said organizers of FROSH are more passive.

“I think it’s all passed down year after year … from forever, I guess” Chen said. “It’s not something we can control, to be honest.”

Chen added that she was not the sole organizer of the FROSH programming, and the event was under the portfolio of CUS VP Engagement Gillian Ong.

“Whatever words come out of the leaders’ mouth we cannot directly control,” said Ong.

The undergraduate society released a statement saying the CUS is committed to a safe environment for frosh events.

CUS President Enzo Woo said he was aware the cheers went on and while he did not approve of them, the responsibility for stopping them from taking place fell to the individual FROSH leaders.

“While we can monitor the formal events that happen at FROSH, we can’t always see what happens behind the doors, and therefore it’s up to the FROSH leaders to provide a safe environment,” Woo said.

Chen said the selection process for FROSH leaders was rigorous, and they went through training similar to that of Imagine Day volunteers, including equity training.

"Whatever words come out of the leaders’ mouth we cannot directly control."
— Gillian Ong, CUP VP engagement

Chelsea Maguddayao, a first-year Commerce student, confirmed the existence of the cheer and the FROSH leaders’ efforts to keep it private.

“We sang it on the bus,” she said. “They specifically told us right before we cheered and everything that you can only cheer it on the bus and you can’t go elsewhere and cheer it outside.”

Maguddayao said she wasn’t especially bothered by the cheer while singing it on the bus.

“It was just for fun, right? It was only on the bus so I didn’t think of it as a big deal, to be honest,” she said. “It was just kind of like, ‘Let’s have a good time, let’s go all out, it’s frosh weekend.’”

In an interview with The Ubyssey, Chen wondered whether Sauder faculty and deans had failed to intervene because no students had complained.

“I’m sure by this point they know things like this happen,” Chen said. “They do know about things like cheers and them sometimes being derogatory.”

Sauder spokesperson Andrew Riley said he was unaware of such a cheer.

“As far as I know, this issue doesn’t exist,” Riley said. “I’ve never heard anything about this before.”

Assistant Sauder dean Pam Lim released a brief written statement saying that such a cheer would be “completely inconsistent” with the values of the school and the instruction FROSH organizers receive.

“We have no knowledge of any inappropriate behaviour by our students,” the statement read.

Jeffery Wang, a second-year Commerce student who volunteered at FROSH, confirmed that the cheer occurred.

“Of course, yeah, that’s done,” Wang said of the cheer. “It was only in the buses. It was only in secluded, more isolated areas.”

Wang said that while he didn’t support the underlying message of the cheer, he felt comfortable singing it.

“I’m not saying that underage rape is okay or it should be encouraged, but [the cheer] maybe gets people out of their personal boundaries and bubbles, you know?” Wang said.

According to multiple sources, the cheer has a long history at Sauder — perhaps as long as 10 or 20 years, according to Wang.

One first-year who heard the cheer recalled some students being bothered by it.

“A few of them made their feelings known and then it wasn’t brought up,” said first-year Commerce student Alex Dye.

"[The cheer] reinforces [victims'] stigmatization and seems to make them into the problem."
— Scott Anderson, UBC professor

Anisa Mottahed, manager of the the Sexual Assault Service Centre on campus, said FROSH should seek other ways to engage first-years.

“I don’t understand why sexualized violence should be pulled into frosh chants,” she said. “We’re really surprised that it’s happening, and saddened.”

UBC professor Scott Anderson, an expert in sexual harassment and assault, said the cheer did more damage than those leading it probably realized. He said for those who have experienced sexual assault or been raped, the cheer trivialized their suffering.

“It reinforces their stigmatization and seems to make them into the problem,” Anderson said. “It makes it seem as though someone who complains that they have been subjected to what the chant suggests is herself not part of the fun, making a big deal out of nothing, and trying to spoil other people’s fun.”

He added that issues of privilege also factor into who leads these chants, and why others feel compelled to sing along.

“Those who are in position to lead such chants are usually men [and] are usually in favoured positions in society, and so there’s a reason to want to bond with them and to show that you get the joke and that you are willing to curry favor by being transgressive and willing to hurt other people’s feelings.”

Anderson said that there are two groups of people who commit sexual assault. The first group understands that what they’re doing is wrong, and are purely predatory. In contrast, the second group doesn’t fully understand the damage they do by breaching consent.

Anderson said for that second group, cheers like the Y-O-U-N-G cheer reinforce the idea that society doesn’t take consent or sexual assault and rape seriously.

“We have to hope that education and knowledge are an antidote to this,” Anderson said.

–With files from Sarah Bigam

  • urooba

    boy, I’m going to sleep well at night knowing “student leaders” on campus are instigating rape culture.

    • urooba

      Farther enraged but so not surprised at the UBC community by reading some of the comments here. A place deemed for so-called higher learning and self-actualization but a proportion of its students (or faculty/staff/admin for that matter) cannot fathom that “harmless jokes” work in insidious ways to perpetuate/normalize the oppressive conditions of our society.

      To borrow Nicholas Ellan’s descriptors from below, we’re all conditioned to take part in and accept this parochial, patriarchal, racist, hypercapitalist, and overall unjust world. So to those making excuses/condoning/passing it off as “harmless”, congratulations – you’re simply doing what you’re taught and taking the easy way out.

      • Chase Armitage

        To further reinforce your comments, im actually shocked at how many borderline retarded kids there are at ubc. The mental age of the average idiots that walk down Wesbrook mall kicking over newspaper stands and mailboxes is easily calculated on no more than a couple fingers. It pains me that this is the so called future of our generation and ill be shocked that half of them aren’t run over before the end of first semester as they walk mindlessly into traffic plugged into their ipod looking at their shoes

        • urooba

          Hm, I am not too fond of your use of the term “retarded” here.

          However, I am also pained that this is the so-called future of our generation.

          • U_wan_pray_game

            Go back to Tumblr.

  • Tony

    “We let the groups know: if it happens in the group, it has to stay in the group.”
    How about if it happens in the group, you tell them to stop?

  • Jeff Perera

    “This is tradition, a tradition handed down and held up …mostly by our silence… Manhood does not equal Domination. The majority of young men are sick and tired of the behaviour, attitudes and actions of a few bad men and the impact they have on both women and men. It’s time to engage them on how they can help be a part of change that affects everyone.”

  • mtgowns

    “and G is for “go to jail””

    Quoting this part because everyone seems to have missed it.

    • Guest

      I’m not 100% sure, but I think that might have been that twitter user’s annoyed embellishment. I read another article in which the “G” in the chant stood for “Grab that ass!”

      • thedemonhog

        That was the Saint Mary’s version. The chant varies across the country.

  • bob

    it’s okay, we told them not to tell anyone, like a real rapist…

  • Ryan Jin

    Sounds like they’re saying things would’ve been totally fine had it not gotten publicity. AND no apology offered. WOW.

  • chickeee

    tax money well spent …

    • Jdawg Laurence

      You mean wealthy parents’ money well spent?

  • Nicholas Ellan

    You know, I’m not surprised this kind of misogynist chanting happens. I wish I was surprised that student organizations and the administration are concerned more with concealing it than preventing it. And I really, really wanted to be alarmed that senior UBC staff were unwilling to take responsibility and instead denied everything. But all of this lines up with my experience of UBC as a parochial, patriarchal, elitist, unjust, hypercapitalist and downright inhuman institution.

    There are a couple departments that break that mold, but Sauder is obviously not one of them.

    • academianut

      Where is the evidence the administration new about it until now? Everything I’ve read and heard points to the student leaders covering it up to hide it not just from the public eye but the institution itself.

  • Fate

    What in the actual fuck, Sauder?

    I’m not even going to bother commenting on how atrocious the chant was, but the fact that none of these “student leaders” have made any sorry attempt at an apology or stopping it is what sadly still surprises me. You’re upset that the chant was made public? How about being upset that it is said in the first place and that it is a “tradition”? At least Saint Mary’s University went so far as to issue an apology and have sensitivity training for their frosh leaders. This is pathetic.

    • callee luddington

      yes, our president was forced to resign and we have a few others on trial with the university. I am so devastated, I wan’t to know why any young man or no woman thinks this is ok. No matter who you are with, if it is isolated or how you think you mean it… it is NOT ok, I don’t get why that is such a hard concept to grasp…

  • Bryan

    The most ridiculous part is that the Frosh organizers and CUS President are just pushing the responsibility onto the leaders, as if this wasn’t any of their doing. That’s like a parent claiming taking responsibility when their kid succeeds, but claiming they had nothing to do with it when their kids screw up. On top of this, some students were bothered by it, yet nothing was done? What a joke CUS is. Rigorous interviewing and training my ass.

    • Guest

      The most ridiculous part is that you’re assuming the fact that students who are “bothered” by it are the same as those who “feel threatened and exploited” by a cheer. When was the last time you told a racist joke? I’m sure there will be people who are bothered by it, that’s why you wouldn’t want to tell a certain joke in front of a certain demographic. And when you get enough people of that demographic to rally up against something as trivial as a joke or cheer, apparently it can make the front page of a newspaper and glorify what was meant to be nothing more than a one-time gag.

      • Bryan

        Oh? So if students are bothered by it, they shouldn’t be acknowledged? So if someone is poking you and you’re bothered by it, no one should tell them to stop? Now it just sounds like you’re just providing an excuse for such behaviour. “It was a joke! I didn’t know it threatened and exploited them!” Well if it was a “joke” and you should only “tell a certain joke in front of a certain demographic,” (btw racism isn’t the issue here and most jokes that are racist are meant to be satirical) then why does it excuse them to chant this abhorrent piece of garbage to friggen first year students? I guess the ridiculous part is, oh yea, you assumed that first years in Sauder would all get the joke, but you know everyone else just doesn’t understand the humour.

        One time gag? They just mentioned that this was a tradition… I don’t know about you but I don’t refer to a single occurrence as a “tradition.” If you want to chant this among your buddies, then fine go right ahead. But don’t fling this garbage at a mass of impressionable first year students who are bothered by it and tell them to “keep this among themselves.”

        Also do you even understand why there is such an uproar? Because this is the impression that UBC is going to give off. A campus that condones underaged rape. It doesn’t matter whether “it’s a joke.” People aren’t going to think “OH THEY MUST BE JOKING,” when they hear that a whole faculty is passing this chant off as “tradition.” They’re not your friends. It’s something that affects UBC campus as a whole. Why would parents want their kids to go to a school that gives off such a chant? Why would companies want to sponsor events at UBC that give them bad publicity? So don’t play this off as “it’s a joke” because honestly if it is, Sauder has the worst sense of humour… I don’t even understand in what context of Frosh would that even be funny.

        • Guest

          This “bad” impression is not given off by the cheer. This “bad” impression is here because of the huge uproar that people are causing on media outlets. The cheer will happen regardless of frosh or not, be it in dorms, class-rooms, or social events.

          I never said the content was acceptable, I was simply saying that you are misunderstanding the intent of these cheers. Nobody means to instigate rape when they recite it. Please, I implore you to find me a first year who will say to you “Yes, I feel rape is okay because I listened to this cheer.”

          And it’s up to people like you, who apparently think a cheer that floats around a freshman culture on campus is representative of the whole UBC community, to go out there and make a huge social media fuss on it and actually put down the UBC image.

          • CK

            Yes, it’s okay to kill people as long as nobody makes a huge fuss about it. /sarcasm

          • Guest

            Yes, because reciting a cheer on a bus is the same as killing someone. /sarcasm

          • Iain Marjoribanks

            Nobody cares what your intention was. It was wrong and harmful.

          • Charlie

            Apparently 600 froshees didn’t take it as anything more than a joke.

            And by 600 froshess I mean full-fledged adults who could’ve spoken up or left frosh at any time if they were uncomfortable or did not wish to participate.

            The content of the cheer might seem wrong and harmful from your perspective, yet no wrong or harm was done under the context.

            Contrary to what the Ubyssey wants you to think, you’re not going to find a single froshee that will say that they were truly ‘bothered’ by this cheer to the point where it detracted from their FROSH experience. No one was forced to do anything.

            And as someone who did not participate at FROSH, you have no right to say on anyone’s behalf that they were harmed because of something only they were exposed to.

          • Iain Marjoribanks

            It is clear to me that you and the chant leaders are not “full-fledged adults,” regardless of your age. You have no idea what harm you have done to people who have been traumatized by sexual violence. It’s similar to students at a university in Ohio, who, in 2007, thought it was “funny” to hang a black mannequin from a tree on their campus. They thought it was “just a joke” there, too. You make UBC look equally corrupt in the eyes of the world, and that puts the stain of your ignorance on me and my degree as much as it does on you and yours. So excuse me, but I have every right to say what you can and can’t do as part of an official UBC event.

          • Bryan

            Please, this bad impression probably within some of the attendees of Frosh, and you’d be ignorant to assume otherwise. Honestly, if I had the time and money to ask all of these froshees, I would because I know for sure that at least some of them would have bad impression of Sauder for leading this type of chant. But that’s not even the biggest issue here. You say that this doesn’t concern anyone outside of Sauder Frosh because it’s taken out of context? Well it does affect me as well as every other student at UBC. Because of this shit, UBC is now entitled as “endorsing rape culture.” My education is potentially compromised and therefore the expected utility of my experience at UBC has been devalued. I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume you’re in Sauder and therefore have taken some Economics classes. The point is the expected utility that I receive from being at UBC is now affected because not only do I have knowledge that there are a group of ignorant Frosh leaders conveying to tradition and projecting this disgrace of a chant onto first year students, I also have to consider the possible loss of potential utility I would gain for going to UBC because UBC is being labelled as endorsing rape culture, AND TO TOP IT OFF, NO APOLOGY IS GIVEN. If it meant anything I’d apologize on behalf of the CUS and UBC, but in reality it doesn’t. So stop justifying ignorant actions and realize that there is no merit in endorsing this type of “joke” in the first place. People have a right to tell jokes just as people have a right to be outraged at the fact Sauder Frosh leaders think under-aged rape is “a joke.” This chant may not inadvertently lead to a Sauder Froshee committing rape, but the concern is that it may give them one more reason to see it as “a joke,” if they do so. I rather become outraged and prevent this from happening then have a slight chance of it happening in the first place…

            Do you not realize this affects any external party’s impression of you? (assuming you’re a Sauder froshee). You don’t seem to realize that a lot of this outrage comes from the fact that Sauder even has the audacity to claim that they tried to hide it and that it was the leaders fault and solely.

          • Iain Marjoribanks

            I would think twice before hiring a Sauder student, after seeing their student “leaders” act this way.

            At this point, it’s up to the administration to make meaningful reforms, or otherwise demonstrate that the inability to take criticism or accountability runs all the way to the top.

          • nelle

            I know you probably didn’t mean it that way, but not all Sauder students are like that. I, for one, was really disturbed by the FROSH chants. Yes, what those specific individuals did was not right, but we shouldn’t generalize it into a stereotype and judge all the other students. I do understand where you are coming from though, since if I were a recruiter who just read this news, I probably would think the same way.

          • Tina Gray

            Hey guys, I found a Sauder kid.

          • guest

            You idiot the UBC image is already put down by this. There is no “misunderstanding” of the intent because the content of the cheer us totally disgusting. I bet that there are probably some people in UBC that have been raped and to hear this cheer was probably the worst thing in the world for them but no its fine right? lets just keep it between us because its “funny”. The bad impression you speak of is in fact given off by the cheer and the fact that no one looked at the frosh leaders and ask them what the fuck is wrong with them stuns me. There should be a huge up roar about this because its sickening. If you think that this cheer will happen regardless especially now then please go into a class, dorm, or a social event like you said and try and start it. I will pay to see what happens to you when you do. The fact that you are actually trying to defend this amazes me

          • Wil

            You’re a moron.

          • Ronny

            While hearing the chant once won’t suddenly change a first year student’s opinion in favor of rape, when young people are bombarded from all angles in the media by messages that objectify women, trivialize all forms of violence, and paint anyone who has a problem with this as a prude or spoilsport, the cumulative effect for some people can be that they just don’t take rape that seriously. For some young person that maybe wasn’t brought up with a really firm moral compass, when the music they listen to acts like pimping women is great fun, porn treats women like pieces of meat, and even their university leaders are on board with it, everything together really can cause them not to think its a big deal.

          • Femina Sapiens

            If these words don’t mean what they mean I would really like to have some plain English interpretation here. Can you, please, explain, WHAT WAS THE REAL INTENT of this specific chant? Who and in what way should feel cheered up by it? What was this particular chant instigating?
            Is it possible to invent the chant which is not about non-consensual, underage sex, which is not against any fundamental Canadian value, which will not hurt or offend a single person?
            Let’s imagine a new chant about pushing random Chinese under moving bus or beating up gay people. What?! That’s no fun?! Well, you misunderstood the intent of my joke; I didn’t mean to instigate anything like that. Just wanted you to imagine where you are heading with insensitivity and disregard tolerated in this matters .
            So, in your opinion, whistle-blowers are actually guilty for UBC stained image. If something ugly happens, as long as is shushed and hushed it won’t cause any damage (apart of those who are already hurt, but who cares for this whiny lot).
            Poor Sauder’s students, they only suffer from ethic and empathetic atrophy….future business leaders….to shudder in horror….

            Looking forward to be further enlightened in the matter of the actual intent of the cheer.

          • Steven I

            Note that I am not condoning the act of rape or the cheer. I am merely going to try and offer you some insight into what you are asking. I doubt I will be able to convince you, but hear me out. It’s about context. Here’s an analogy for you: when a comedian delivers a joke, and the audience laughs, where does that humour come from? Comedy is innately linked to the unexpected; we find things funny because a punch line isn’t what you’d normally think. This is also why the same joke told twice isn’t nearly as funny.

            Now what happens when a comedian delivers an offensive joke? Where does the humour come from? Almost every time, the offensive bit of the joke is what makes it funny. Why? Its not because the people who laugh are terrible human beings, its because the offensive bit is so out of left field and you know that the comedian doesn’t actually mean what he says.

            Now put yourself in the shoes of a froshee. You’re nervous as hell, then you meet your frosh leaders. After a day of crazy fun activities, learning all the Sauder cheers, and talking to your leaders, you realize they are pretty amazing people. They’ve pretty much been your best friends all day. Finally you get to the bus to go to the hotel. You’re having so much fun and you know these people would never hurt you. Then the chant starts. Its so out of left field and offensive… totally unexpected, and of course you laugh. You know these leaders don’t mean it. Its an offensive cheer juxtaposed to all the serious Sauder chants you’ve learned. At the end of the day, its a form of comedy, like it or not. And comedy… always has to do with context.

            Speaking of comedy: here’s George Carlin:

          • Femina Sapiens

            For the greater part of your comment I agree with you, Steven. Also, the late George Carlin happened to be my favourite “philosopher”. :) It’s so true: words are not bad per se, and often, when we are taking politically correct attitudes to some absurd level, we can achieve some humorous results. Alas, the context is The Slippery Slope in our little discussion. “Rape” or “no-consent”, or “so tight” are not bad or offensive or wrong words at all. “The context is what makes them good or bad”, as Carlin said, and exactly the context is what I find truly and deeply disturbing here.
            Here is my analogy. I teach kids. IMAGINE situation: children love me and trust me, think the world of me, we just had a terrific day exploring nature in Stanley Park, and then…on our way back I decide to teach them a little pro-porn cheer. After this “vivacious, bonding and safe” activity, I may ask them not to talk about the chant to parents…No harm was done…or….was it? What is the message of the chant? The porn is OK. for you, kids. It’s fun to blur the difference between wrong (horrific) and right (that’s relative and contextual and mostly not fun at all). If there is a child in this class that was molested (at home or anywhere else) she/he will feel even more pain after this chant, even more confusion and isolation, powerless. Why? Because what brings the pain is, after teacher initiated this chant, now socially or among peers condoned as something fun, or fun could be made out of it.
            I don’t believe that comedy lives in this context…and I suspect that George Carlin was not suggesting this. The late Richard Pryor and Eddy Murphy were entitled to safely make all “nigger” jokes because they are “niggers”. Woody Allen has no boundaries in his Jewish jokes: “Life is like a concentration camp-you can’t leave without dying.” A lot of water still has to flow down Rhine and Jordan before Michael Mittermeier (top German comedian) dares to make a joke like that. When it comes to other nations, he better stay in the safe space of politic, like Colbert, or foreign accents and food, like our own Russel Peters ; Peters is touching the other cultures but he is BENIGN, often benevolent to the subject. Then we can all laugh safely, no ugly message is passed, no crime/suffering trivialized, no-one is hurt…except politicians, but somehow I trust they can take it.
            I knew once a beautiful, talented, brilliant girl, Steven. She was born to a loving family, but molested as a child, which created chronic severe depression that ended , despite all care and love she was receiving from her family, friends, doctors and councillors, with the suicide. She was 17, the age of froshee. If she was able to survive her youth with all her emotional damage and pain and enter the Sauders School of Business, how would that cheer affect her? Would she step out in the bus full of new (future) friends and fellows to stop the chant and then explain why?….or?….What if her younger sister was in this bus? I let you think about possible scenarios.
            And one more question Steven; have you been raped?
            No need to answer me -just ponder.
            Lines are today’s blurred not only in Thicke’s song. To make a comedy of rape (underage or any other) shows some really disturbed sense of humour. If that is a part of contemporary culture, I will do anything in my might to change it, instead of trying to fit in and making excuses.
            You shared with me George Carlin and I will complete my reply with a quote from Jiddu Krishnamurti: “It is not a measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
            Thank you for taking the time and effort to share your opinion, Steven.
            PS. You said: “Note that I am condoning the act of rape and the cheer”. I like to believe that you meant to say “condemning” instead of “condoning”.

          • Steven I

            Missed a “not” there when I was re-editting. The difference, I think, is that these froshees are more or less intelligent young adults. They aren’t kids. They know that in a situation like what occurred on that bus, the FROSH leaders aren’t seriously promoting rape. I mean the last line of the chant is “G – go to jail”. I’ll give it to you on the fact that it is a disturbed sense of humour. And I’m not sure if thats a reflection of the society we live in or not. Matt Gurney of the National Post wrote an interesting article that outlined the motives behind why the chant was said.

            He might go treat the issue a little too lightly, but as for the question of hurting people who have been victims of sexual abuse? It takes a pretty unique kind of person to get into Sauder in the first place. These are pretty much the leaders of high schools all around Canada and the world. Some of the very best young and bright minds. If they’ve been able to overcome being a victim of sexual abuse, an become a leader in their communities, I’m sure they know more than anyone that the world isn’t all flowers and roses, and they know when people are just making a sick joke. And props to them, because their journey in life has been harder than the average person, yet they’ve ended up at one of the best business schools in Canada. It takes an incredibly strong-willing person to do that. I know, because I know people how have dealt with depression. I’m not saying the chant is OK. It’s not, and it should go. It accomplishes nothing productive.

      • Jenny

        yeah cause rape is trivial… way to “trivialize” rape victims feelings by suggesting that this attitude is at all ok. Thats pretty sick.

    • chris duranti

      Pushing blame onto someone else to cover your ass, pretty sure that’s in the Commerce 101 syllabus. This kind of spineless behavior is awful, but at the same time I’m not surprised.

      • Kary Lao

        Yikes. While it’s easy to start bashing on Sauder, why don’t we just limit this to the students involved, rather than the entire faculty? There are some great people from Sauder doing amazing things; not everyone is as cold and spineless as we may stereotype them to be.

        - A non-Commerce student

  • sallyforth

    The chant is bad enough. The lack of leadership from the CUS is just sad. Let’s put this to a real life business situation. CRA is coming for an audit.
    You are a manager who has condoned fraud. How do you show leadership? A. Cover up as much as possible and then blame the supervisors. B. Maintain the fraud didn’t occur where other people could see it so it doesn’t count. C. Claim that you can’t control your employees.

    • Wumpistein

      You just compared fraud to a joke in poor taste. Did you turn your brain on before you started typing?

      • leonard

        yeah, endorsing the rape of underage girls is a joke in poor taste. Did you turn your brain on before you started typing?

        • Wumpistein

          It’s called Black Humour. Look it up junior. Should students be lead into this chant by student leaders at a university event? No. Is everyone blowing this out of proportion without placing the event in context? Yes. This type of reaction is commonplace nonsense for people who are hypocrites when it comes to this topic in their own right. Everyone knew this was happening for years upon years but no one cares. They only cared now that they got caught. And 90% of the people who have worked themselves up into an frothing rage are guilty of consuming or contributing to media that spews sexist nonsense day in and day out. But this is a witch hunt, and people want someone to burn at the stake. They need to claim that this is an endorsement of rape, when everyone knows goddamn well that there wasn’t anyone endorsing shit at that event. Not a single fucking person there would have heard that chant and said, “Aw yeah, looks like rape is promoted here. Think I’ll go out and rape.” You’d have to be so full of shit to think that were the case. At the same time, UBC allows the existence of fraternities on campus, places which pose a real danger to young woman, with staggeringly high rates of sexual assault (as stated by numerous studies by the Justice Institute). What are we doing about them? Nothing. After this little shit storm is over everyone is going to go back their cosy lives and think they’ve done well, in all of their self-righteous glory. This entire thing is bullshit and everyone knows it, regardless of your sarcastic return fire comment.

  • B I

    On the day before Imagine Day, during Imagine training, I saw many Sauder froshees doing lovely things. One example is their group called Pocahontas, one of whose cheers consisted of “White man steal our land! White man steal our land!”

    • urooba

      *pretends we live in a parody world to console self*

    • Guest

      And this is the context. How can people take this seriously anything that was said during FROSH? It’s laughable, and should be kept at that.

      • Amanda

        Just because you don’t find yourself in a group that would find it alienating and intimidating to bear witness to this kind of racist and sexist behavior (because let’s call a spade a spade. Just because it’s a joke does not mean it’s not bigoted) doesn’t mean that it’s okay. You need to try to have some compassion and put yourself in other people’s shoes. Some people would find this atmosphere to be an incredibly unwelcoming and alienating introduction to university life. And if FROSH is about bonding, isn’t is better to be able to make sure everyone feels bonded and included than to use jokes that can alienate people? Or are you saying that FROSH should just be for the good old guys and gals who don’t come from groups that would be offended or, if they do, because of their privileged life experiences are able to get the ‘joke’ without feeling alienated by it. FROSH is for all students and there are other ways to be stupid and silly that won’t offend.

      • Kary Lao

        *Face-palm moment* Not going to delve into anything that’s off topic from the issue here, but a group going around calling themselves Pochahontas, and shouting “White man steal out land” is not, in the general consensus, laughable.

        Again, just because something is intended to be a joke doesn’t mean that everyone finds it funny.

  • Guest
    • urooba

      this is what I hear: “because FROSH builds lifelong friendships blah blah blah glorifying sexual assault is okay”

      your reasoning is appalling too, bro.

      • Guest

        I’m not condoning what was said, what I am saying is that FROSH should not be given a bad reputation as a result of a few comments/chants that were said… i also do not see the need for quotation marks.

        • Ariel

          Nope, and no one should take any responsibility for it either, I mean it was just a lighthearted cheer and frosh weekend was generally awesome and it’s too bad people take things like this too seriously because we all know social norms change and sexism and rape are a thing of the past and this is just a bunch of feminists being oversensitive and why are you trying to ruin our fun and it’s too bad that civilised society forces us to be politically correct because we are unable to generate humour or make friendships without being offensive and why are you so angry…

          • Guest

            And with that comment, I’ve lost all faith in humanity

          • lothwe

            It was said tongue-in-cheek. There, you can have some of that faith back now.

          • Ashley

            I logged in just to vote down this comment.

          • futurewidow

            and I logged in just to tell you you’re an idiot :)

    • Moi

      I know this might be shocking, but in my first year at uni, I managed to have a fantastic frosh week, built camaraderie and made friends, without any chanting about rape at all. Funny how that works.

  • Liz

    Shame on you. You can’t control people? How about saying at training: if we catch you leading cheer A, B, or C, you will be removed as a frosh leader immediately. I had similar rules as a Orientation Volunteer at UoG, and, to my knowledge, there was no problems in the 5 years of my involvement. And ours was also a student run week-long event. No excuses

    • Guest

      This is done at leaders training. Any such behavior that is caught will spell immediate expulsion.

      And yet no one is caught. Why did no one tell on them? Because apparently all the first years can take a joke better than the upper years who have nothing to do at Ubyssey.

      • outrageousfortune

        Or because people are afraid of the repercussions that would come with bringing it up to administration. Hmmmm, I wonder why they would be afraid?

        • Guest

          If I felt exploited, I definitely wouldn’t be afraid to bring it up to administration.

          Please elaborate on why you would be.

          • Saebu

            If Frosh leaders risk being blacklisted in exposing the chants, what could happen to the first years?

          • Guest

            Frosh leaders risk being blacklisted for teaching the cheer to first years. If first years expose the fact that they are learning these cheers from their leaders, their leaders will be blacklisted and face immediate expulsion from the event. Nothing happens to froshees… I don’t understand what your point is.

          • Jeremia Chow

            I think Bonnie is saying, (she may correct me if I’m wrong), that the fear a first-year student may feel in bringing up their concern over this chant is not whether or not they get in trouble or get blacklisted or not, but rather, that there is fear from less tangible consequences. That might be the shame they feel in topics of rape and sexual assault or the the fear of societal condemnation from bringing concerns like this up. It may be easy for you to say: “Well, if I felt uncomfortable, I would have said something!” and then, therefore conclude, because no one said anything, everyone must be fine with this chant. This is a totally fallible conclusion. Most instances of rape and sexual assault go unreported. Does that mean the victim must be ‘okay’ with it? No, absolutely not. Please do not demand others to “elaborate on why you would be” afraid to speak up on issues of sexual assault and harmful misogynistic behaviour. For those who have been hurt and have experienced the consequences of sexual assault and rape culture, what you are asking is demeaning and extremely insensitive.

          • disqus_83q4brwi8c

            I don’t think you quite understand the circumstances resulting in someone being blacklisted. It is no secret to the CUS that the chants are happening. The leaders will be blacklisted for publicly chanting and teaching the chants in public. An offended froshee who speaks up honestly will have no reason to be blacklisted. As user ‘Sauder student’ posted below of their own experience at frosh, we genuinely tried to make FROSH a comfortable yet exciting event for first years.

          • Bonnie Patterson

            Bear in mind, the people who would be most upset about hearing or even being under peer pressure to join in with this chant, would be the ones who had themselves been raped, particularly at a young age.

            And anyone who’s been raped knows what it’s like to try to talk to someone who hasn’t about things that upset you because of it. They have heard the whole “It’s a joke” speech before. Then they get the “Freedom of Speech” speech, followed by the “Words only have power if you let them” monologue. Then they usually take a couple of insults and end up getting harassed for the rest of their time at college for being a man-hating prude.

            That’s why authority structures in faculty and student bodies are supposed to tell students *not to do this*, not to tell them not to get caught.

          • Jack

            lol @ “authority structures.” In the Real World there is no authority—authority is a kooky non-concept used by vicious little punks who have no martial capacity, who therefore rely on strong-men to do their fighting for them. Wimps who expect the benefits of being able to enact violence/discipline without actually believe able to do it themselves.

      • Kary Lao

        You *do* understand that the reason why this is an issue, is because the chant is NOT a joke? Jokes can start off hilarious in intent by any individual, but that doesn’t dictate the reception of said joke is so.

        In laymen’s term: just because I *think* it’s funny, doesn’t mean that other people will, or should, think it’s funny. Get it?

      • leonard

        advocating the rape of underage girls (or anyone else) should never be treated as a joke

      • Pharmachick

        No, because first years are intimidated by seniors. Because many first years are far from home and desperately trying to make friends. Because most first years don’t want to be ostracized from their “new” University community. Because most first years desperately want to belong and make their new friends in life here/there at the University they chose, and they feel like The University chose them too.

        And also, because not just first years, but anyone else that has been a victim of sexual assault, is highly (statistically) likely to be self conscious, anxious, repressed, depressed, and scared. Also, [understatement of the century] they’re mostly NOT INCLINED to let some random boy or girl in their first year class, that is simultaneously advocating the rape of minors, know anything about their experience. Let alone the anguish of … for example… sitting on a bus, not being able to get off, and having that rampantly and brutally promoted by that student body “leadership” at the Business School, and by UBC.

        How do these first year boys and girls, that are victims stand up for themselves under these circumstances?

        They don’t. The melt into a background of helplessness, abuse and shame. They have statistically higher rates of self-harm and suicide.

        We ALL need to do better, but UBC needs to step up right now.

  • Max

    This blows my mind, but just last week the *exact same thing* just happened at Saint Mary’s University in Nova Scotia. There, the students in charge of orientation were made to attend sensitivity training.

  • Matt

    Excuse me for being skeptical this even happened with a ‘twitter screenshot of someone who heard something’ used as primary evidence. Even if it was true, calling this a promotion of “rape culture” and we should fear for the safety of our sexual organs around campus is not very sound.

    I’m tired of hearing American style arguments that always puts the opposite ends of the spectrum up against each other with nobody in the middle. That’s all I see in the comments posted so far.

    • outrageousfortune

      I’m just blown away by the fact that in this day and age, there are still people who don’t seem to realize that these “harmless” jokes are actually quite harmful. How many women in that group do you think have been sexually assaulted? Statistics would say that there would be a handful or more. And in order to fit in with the group, they have to go along with a joke about assaulting someone/being assaulted?

      The problem was not with where the chant occurred, the problem was that it is encouraged at all.

      • Charlie

        It was not encouraged in any way or form. That’s my point. That is the point that everyone who hasn’t been to FROSH is missing.

        Just because something was told in a joke does not mean it is encouraged. In fact, it’s being mocked. And like someone else pointed out, in the actual cheer itself, “G is for go to jail.”

        What is actually encouraging these students to feel uncomfortable is the fact that so many people here, including the staff at the Ubyssey are making such a HUGE story out of it and drawing so much attention to this issue. This is something that should not be glorified for prospective students to see.

        Someone else mentioned that it makes UBC look bad, yes that it will do. But the FROSH leaders are not at fault here, it’s the massive amount of unnecessary media coverage that this small issue is receiving that’s truly glorifying the context of sexual assault.

        • Kary Lao

          You do realize that there’s a reason why there’s media coverage over this, right? There’s no glorification of anything whatsoever (and remind me, who glorifies sexual assault?). The fact that you even toy with the idea that sexual assault can be glorified or that media coverage over such an issue can be “unnecessary” really shows your lack of understanding about the matter.

          Yes, it makes UBC look bad. Why? Because it is bad. A joke may not encourage anything, but it reinforces an attitude that is harmful. What part about this don’t you understand?

    • ILovetheKenyanUsurper!

      HAHAHAHA! I love having myself a good laugh about raping young women! It’s so fun!

    • Tony

      Thank you for taking ownership of your statements.

  • Peter

    I remember when, nine years ago, I joined Sauder and this chant, and others like it, were my introductions to UBC, Sauder, and the undergraduate experience.

    It’s sad to see that so many years later, this sort of behaviour is still tolerated, ignored, and basically promoted by a set of institutions (CUS and Sauder) which chose to turn a willful blind eye.

    I know there have been voices for change, but sadly they have always been overruled by the establishment (FROSH as a no-holds-barred wild and silly party), by “tradition” (and some sort of misguided idea that this sort of chanting constitutes team-building), and by institutional momentum (little internal incentive to change).

    Old habits die hard, I’m afraid. But in this case, die they must.

  • Roberto Luongo

    So all this Jacqueline Chen character cares about is if it goes public?! In other words, she only cares about their image to outsiders and doesn’t care about what they’re actually doing as long as it’s hushed up. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Just another reason why I want to leave this city.

    People like her don’t actually care what’s going on as long as no one knows about it. Those types of people make me sick.

  • thedemonhog

    “UBC Investigates After Students Led in Chant Encouraging Rape of Underage Girls” – Global
    “Controversy at UBC Over Rape Chant” – Canoe
    “UBC Has a Rape Chant Too” – London Free Press
    “Controversy Erupts at UBC Over Frosh Week Rape Chant” – Toronto Sun

    I wonder if The Ubyssey considered that the mainstream media and Twitter would not care very much what faculty “At UBC, we like ‘em young” is chanted and would instead just identify it as a UBC chant.

    • Bryan

      And there it is. The ‘why’ in why this is being made such a big deal. I don’t, and I’m sure no other UBC student, want to be associated with going to a school that condones rape culture.

    • selonmoi

      And so? The Ubyssey should have kept quiet? Done their part to perpetuate rape culture?

      Here’s a better question: Did the FROSH leaders who led the rape chant stop to think what damage it might do to UBC’s reputation if the story got out? How about the CUS organisers who refused to shut it down?

  • Guest

    and these people claim to expect to be our future leaders….I see NO leadership in any of this….from the fact it’s been known for years, and the only action taken was to “keep it secret”, to the point some people expressed their concerns about the chant, but their concerns were ignored….to the so called leaders then saying they have no control over what the frosh leaders say or do….leadership involves responsibility, and there is none of that happening in this case….I guess you can send a kid to college, but not necessarily educate him/her? This should simply not be tolerated….peer pressure and group think at it’s worst….

  • ubcstudent17
  • ubcstudent17

    A petition was just started to demand that UBC administration take action against those responsible. Sign here:

  • ibnt

    At the same time, UBC has a growing problem with rape on campus and almost 50% of female students in a recent survey said they don’t feel safe at night at UBC. I’d suggest UBC has every student sign a charter of behaviour — this is what universities like Oxford and Cambridge do. Then, for an episode like this, eject them from their course. It won’t take more than a few removals before those who can learn, grow up, and behave do so.

    • Jack

      Anyone who feels “safe” is hallucinating. There is no such thing as safety, except for insurance men, and even then it exists only in their textbooks and actuarial models. Life is supposed to be about living, not insurance stats.

  • Charlie

    It’s unbelievable. A racist joke can be said on campus and nothing will be done. No one will be accused of instigating racism or perpetuating hate. Yet a cheer done at freshman orientation that is NOT meant to target anyone or anything, and is being said intentionally to be adverted from public attention BECAUSE of its content, is being treated like the Holy Grail of UBC’s higher education. We might as well assume that anyone who tells an offensive joke is a racist who should be expelled from school.

    Yes the location and situation matters, the fact that they try to hide it means they understand the severity of its content so that issues like this would be privatized. There is a difference between blowing up a bomb in Times Square vs a rural forest in terms of severity and intent, and it plays the same role here.

    This is not something that only happens at FROSH, or at UBC for that matter. These University cheers have a legacy that is brought down verbally and is unavoidable in caricature. The more attention the media shines upon this situation, the more prospective students will be curious and want to learn about them. In one sense, if this story was kept on the DL, students would not even bother with what it is. All this hype simply glorified the taboo stature of this minute issue and have spawned a seriously unhealthy NEED for students to learn it.

    • Mon

      “Yet a cheer done at freshman orientation that is NOT meant to target anyone or anything”

      Um, I’m pretty sure it targets women, actually, in the way that any racist joke targets a race of people.

      *(Not to dismiss the importance of weeding out racism.)

      • Guest

        So tell me, the last time you told a racist joke, was your intention to ‘target’ that demographic as an insult or were you simply trying to make your friends laugh?

        • Mon

          It’s probably gonna be hard for you to grasp this one, but there are people out there— myself included— who actually don’t tell racist jokes. Crazy sauce, huh?

          • Charlie

            Just out of curiosity, what is your thought on the large population of people who do tell racist jokes? Are they all racist?

            And is everyone who eats meat a supporter of animal cruelty?

            Is everyone who chants a cheer once about underage sex an advocate of rape and exploitation?

            This whole discussion is a laughable. I’m glad you don’t tell offensive jokes, but you’re not going to stop the people who are.

            Depending on the context, some of them might mean the insult to others, but you can’t deny that the majority of them are just said for laughs.

            I’m not saying the cheer isn’t offensive, I’m just saying under the context and location, people are reacting to this joke as if it was announced by the Prime Minister on National T.V.

            Seriously, it was said by FRESHMEN on a BUS… If there was a time and place for everything (regardless of its offensiveness), FROSH would be it. People need to learn to take a joke.

          • Viet

            The slippery slope is a logical fallacy that you are committing which makes your statement to be invalid. It is inexcusable that the chant explicitly promotes rape.

          • Guest

            Even murder can be excused under the right circumstances. And the context behind this chant is nowhere near the severity that you make it out to be. I’m sure there are more serious jokes out there in other schools that ‘explicitly’ promote racism, drug abuse, and other common issues. But everyone seems to be forgetting about those and putting the pressure on one event at one campus.

            I’m not trying to argue with anyone and I’m not trying to say that rape is okay. I’m just disappointed with this HUGE over-reaction that everyone here is a part of, that is collectively making UBC look bad.

          • Bryan

            …. in what context can murder being excused (I’m assuming in self defence) be transferable to Sauder promoting rape culture and hence affecting UBC’s image as a whole?

          • Saebu

            I may be wrong, but perhaps Charlie is implying that in the right circumstances murder is right in the same way that in the right circumstances rape is right… Wait a fucking second, that makes no sense. Charlie stop your dumbass moral relativism.

          • Wil

            Dude, just stop. Every time you post, you confirm you’re a moron who doesn’t have a clue about basic decency.

          • Viet

            Actually, CVC’s promotional video did promote racism and did get punished for it. Why should this be, as you say, any different?

          • Mon

            The answers to your series of questions are, in respective order: yes!!!, yes excepting unusual circumstances, and yes, whether they realize it or not.

            “People need to learn to take a joke.”
            It baffles me that the idea of jokes having no social impact has not yet been banished from conversation entirely

            “I’m just disappointed with this HUGE over-reaction that everyone here is a part of, that is collectively making UBC look bad.”
            I think it’s pretty obvious that UBC’s student leaders chose to look bad when they passively allowed and/or actively encouraged students to chant about raping young girls, before choosing to look even worse by answering interview questions with ridiculous bullsh!t like “well, we did try our best to keep this out of the public eye,” and “it’s not something we can control,” and (my personal favorite) “As far as I know, this issue doesn’t even exist.”

            I’m sorry you’re offended by my stance on racist jokes, Charlie, but as far as I know, That Issue Doesn’t Even Exist. I’m done tho actually, I will not be responding to further comments.

          • Charlie

            Open-mindedness is a virtue.

            There’s really not to much to say here. We’re two different people with two different moral standpoints. I respectfully disagree with how you think about social issues, but I won’t enforce my opinion on you. Have a good day.

          • 1benmenno

            A sense of humour is a virtue. Please tell me how jokes about non-consensual sex are funny. Also, tell me a racist joke that you think is funny. Sarah Silverstein once said that there is a difference between a racist joke and a joke about racism. Do you know this difference?
            Edit: Sarah Silverman, not Silverstein.

          • Guest

            Dunno about you, but I thought this one was hilarious

            This cowpoke is ridin’ across the prairie in the 1860′s, it’s hot and
            he’s dozin’ in the saddle, lulled into sleep by the gentle rocking as his horse walks slowly along. He wakes and finds the horse standing still, cropping grass. The cowpoke rubs sleep from his eyes and looks around. He’s wandered smack into the middle of a burned out wagon train! Bodies of people and horses are layin’ everywhere with arrows stickin’ up out of ‘em like grisly pincushions. He pulls his Colt and nudges his horse forward, takin’ in the carnage. Nearly to the end of the line of burned-out wagons, he notices a nude form on the ground off to his left, bone white and shining against the yellow of the sunscorched prairie. He rides slowly over and discovers it’s a lovely young woman lying spreadeagled, staked out on the ground. He sits and gazes down at her, sadness swelling in his heart at the loss of life and at her incredible beauty. Then a miracle! Her eyes flutter and open and she squints up at him and starts in disbelief. “Oh sir! Thank God you’ve come! My husband and everyone on the wagon train were murdered by Indians before my eyes. Then they staked me out and ten braves had their way with me! Oh please untie me and take me with you!”

            The cowpoke eases out of the saddle, slips his gun back into the holster, drops his gunbelt to the ground beside him and begins unbuttoning his trousers. “Lady, this just ain’t your day!”

          • Guest

            “Open-mindedness is a virtue.”

            Hands-down the absolute best line to come from Charlie because he sees absolutely no irony in that statement. Someone who is so closed minded that he firmly believes this chant was morally justified, with no room to look at his own beliefs from a different standpoint, is telling other people to have an open mind.

        • saito-borg

          Believe it or not, some people actually understand the disconnect between intention and effect, and DON’T tell racist jokes!

        • outrageousfortune

          Uhh, I avoid that problem by not telling racist jokes.

    • Kary Lao

      Actually, what’s more unbelievable is that there are people who defend this joke. And you’re pulling in a lot of strings here, buddy – racism and sexual assault, while topics to be abhorred, have different complexities and effects, but before I get all Arts-y on you, why don’t we just look at the plain facts here.

      Frosh leaders said joke that was in bad taste. Frosh participant publishes it. Leaders then acknowledge it, and admit that these jokes can *still be told, but only in private*.

      And let me correct you: the more attention the media shines upon this situation, the LESS LIKELY IT’LL HAPPEN BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS THOSE ARE THE CONSEQUENCES. Maybe the fact the media is responding in such a NEGATIVE MANNER says something about the people who try to learn this chant again? If I’m reading it correctly, you are actually advocating for this to have been kept on the down low – this is not a minute issue at all.

      If you think anyone in their right mind would chase an activity down and do it again after it’s been lambasted in the media, you are delusional.

    • Amanda

      I understand your standpoint as I, myself, have a rather crude and offensive sense of humour. However, I think that comparing a racist joke to a rape chant is nonsensical.

      Racist jokes rely solely on satire and aim to poke fun at someone’s race and the culture and beliefs associated with it. Rape is a much serious issue as opposed to someone’s race. It serves to traumatize a victim with long-lasting effects. Rape jokes dehumanize the victim by making it “funny” and “ok” to rape. I am not saying that the FROSH leaders thought, “Hey, let’s promote rape!” I understand that the joke lies in the crudity and severity of the chant. But I do think that the leaders should have had the decency to take into account that there are possibly a few, if not some, students who have been victimized by rape or other kinds of sexual assault. There are likely many students who felt uncomfortable but weren’t confident enough to speak out, especially because the event is supposed to be “fun” and no one wants to be a kill-joy.

      Another issue is, the co-chair expressed her regret for publicity, rather than the chant. That again serves to trivialize the matter. Again, I don’t believe that the chant was intended to promote rape, but I do think that it severely crossed the line.

  • Alexandra

    As a Sauder student, I was disappointed that the CUS’ official public statement didn’t include an apology, but it goes without saying that this is something a lot of students are very ashamed of – either by participation or by association. Frosh is a very unique event; it does a lot to welcome students, help facilitate real and lasting relationships, and gets them outside of their comfort zones, which for the most part is a good thing, except when some of the measures that are taken to do so take the form of something like this. Without trivializing the offensiveness of the chant, I think we could all stand to remember how intimidating it was for all of us as first year students entering an environment none of us felt all too comfortable in. While chants can be deeply offensive, it can be very hard for new students to stand up to an established norm even after it has taken place. At the same time, it’s unfortunate that this chant is part of the norm and the environment that our new students are inheriting. There is no need to perpetuate the chant, and to my understanding, all that can be said for that is that it’s a very unhealthy tradition passed down over the years, without much thought being given to the message that it no doubt sends. I think as a school, we could examine the impact of our words to determine whether they are truly in line with our principles, which I would hope to assure you despite popular opinion, are strong among our student body.

    I’m not saying that nobody is at fault, nor trying to justify it – I would even agree that silence is complacence – but at the same time, it isn’t fair to say that the students in the faculty as a whole should be discredited as leaders. That kind of sweeping statement is inaccurate and only serves to slander based on bias or little knowledge of our student body as a whole.

    Sauder as an academic institution, the CUS as a student body and Frosh as a service have many legitimate merits that have been swept to the side by this incident. I’ll be the first one to say that as a Sauder student, I’m deeply sorry for the offensive message of this chant, and for its glorification of a seriously problematic societal mindset. It is something that, like every other student, I was a part of in my first-year Frosh experience as a froshee, but not something we should continue to perpetuate or impose on impressionable incoming students. It goes without saying that our students, peers, and community deserve a public apology, and they also deserve business leaders who have more sensibility. Sensitivity training would definitely be in order, to some extent to the entire student body at Sauder. A donation from the CUS’ special projects fund to an organization like SASC might also be appropriate.

    University is a formative time for all of us, a time to make stupid mistakes, but more importantly, a time to learn from them, and I think the message to be learned here is loud and clear.

    • thedemonhog

      Well, that is pretty much what the press release should have been.

    • Saebu

      I agree with thedemonhog. CUS’s statement on Monday morning better be at least as good as Alexandra’s post here. #AlexandraforCUSPresident #realchange2014

      • Say You

        Saebu, surely you are aware that Alexandra was one of the candidates that ran against the current president Enzo Woo but lost (by a slim margin if I may add).

        Well, at least someone in Sauder is talking some sense.

        • Saebu

          Oh yeah, I know. That’s why I threw in the hashtags.

  • ggg100033

    check SFU, I wouldn’t be surprised if they do it as well.

  • Sauder Student

    Why is everyone making such a big deal over this… Should we start criticizing rap music and ban students from listening to it? Most of the students had no idea this chant was about rape and didn’t think of it as anything more than a pump up thing. We can sing to a song but are in no agreement with the lyrics. If students were uncomfortable, they could have simply not joined along. I, for one was quite tired on some of the bus trips and took a nap during those chants. The fact that its been one week since frosh and no students complained but all you people are on here complaining is a joke. Everyone signed up to go to frosh at their own will and had the option to leave any time they wanted. All the leaders were very understanding and never made us do anything we didn’t want to do. None of us here are little kids anymore and we are old enough to make our own decisions. You people are naiive to read one article then start pointing fingers and judging others. Go talk to the people who actually attended frosh if you are so rattled over this. As a froshee, I don’t think the frosh organization needs to apologize and people who didn’t actually attend frosh has no right to expect an apology.

    Also, the students that were put on blast in this article are now subject to harassment from other students. Way to add fuel to the fire.

    • mel

      “Signed up to go to frosh at their own will and had the option to leave any time they wanted”? Is there a “chant activity” listed on the forsh activities list for first-years to take it into consideration? Exactly no one makes you do anything you dont want to do but do you see how this chant could influence students’ attitude towards sexual activities and assaults in general? I’ve done the exactly same frosh 2 years ago and well, I remember what things looked like and what did some guys talk about lots during that 3 days.

      • Sauder Student

        Ok so just because I like/listen to Drake, Nicki Minaj, Eminen etc, doesn’t mean I’m going to go do drugs and have sex. You’re basically stating that everything we are exposed to influences us and our actions. Well how about all the movies, music, and social media we are exposed to? What about all the songs played on radio stations? We are all old enough to make our own decisions. Nobody at frosh ever intended to promote rape in any way. Heck, I had thought that “no consent” meant no consent from parents. It was supposed to be a fun weekend and now things just got blown out of portion.

        • Saebu

          Uh here’s the thing about “no consent” from parents in the context of underage sex. It’s a little thing called statutory rape, which is still ultimately rape. It’s unnerving to think you could be handling the finances of thousands of people one day when you’re this god damn stupid. :

          • Wil


        • selonmoi

          So apparently you don’t even know what “consent” refers to (so much for those other Sauder defenders taking about the wonderful work they’ve done on rape prevention)?

          But we’re not supposed to be concerned about how mindlessly repeating this chant might affect you and your fellow mouth-breathers?

        • Name

          No, listening to Drake, Nicki Minaj, and Eminem just means you like wack music. It’s probably why you like these chants so much.

    • Amy

      We have a right to expect an apology because this issue not only reflects Sauder as a faculty, but UBC as a whole. Maybe you, as a Sauder froshee, don’t feel that this issue has tarnished your/Sauder’s image, but it has tarnished the rest of our images as UBC students.

    • Kary Lao

      “Why is everyone making such a big deal over this…”

      Do any of you actually read WHY people are offended by this? Maybe if you took the same time writing up comments to read up on maybe why this was offensive on so many levels, you’d stop asking that question.

      And go figure, a Frosh attendant defending this. Did you have fun over the weekend? Does it upset you that your weekend of privilege and hip-hip-hooray has now been lambasted over the media? You attended a party, get over it – there are more serious implications from this than you not getting a weekend of unadulterated joy.

  • callee luddington

    “It gets people out of their personal boundaries and bubbles them up” “it was only in isolated areas” sorry, that does not make it ok AT ALL, it is NEVER ok.

    • 1benmenno

      I agree. But that is the purpose of Frosh week, to artificially turn persons into members of a group, to indoctrinate an us vs. them mentality. Chanting offensive rhymes provides cohesion, if only by complicity. Mel Brooks put it best as the thousand year old man reciting the first national anthem: “They can all to go to hell, except for cave 7.”

      • callee luddington

        the purpose of frosh week is to make friends and have fun and yes join members of a group, but i do not agree with you that the rhymes have to be offensive, that is disgusting. chant about partying, that joins people together, chant about general school pride, why on earth would making an artificial group EVER have to involve chanting about rape??? I am sorry but your point makes NO excuse for this chant, nothing ever will.

        • 1benmenno

          I am not excusing this chant. I am pointing out how common such chants are and what purpose they serve. Frosh week used to include much worse hazing practices, many of which have been banned. I wish the whole tradition of having frosh leaders were banned. Universities are about critical thinking. Chanting inane lyrics in the name of fitting in with the established culture is a crock.

  • thedemonhog

    It is frustrating that the commenting system here does not allow you to vote up your own posts, am I right?

    • 1benmenno

      Shirley, you must be joking.

    • Say You

      Riley, the gig’s up.

  • Rebecca

    Please help me fill this petition! The CUS needs to take accountability

  • AnonymousStudent

    Everyone here seems to think that FROSH explicitly promotes rape. That is completely wrong as this cheer is meant to gather people together. The amount of media coverage is the only problem so far because, this, for people on their white pedestals is the perfect thing to point their judgmental fingers at. This particular cheer is a little offensive I agree but it doesn’t promote rape. A rapist will stay a rapist if he chose to and the intelligent students at UBC will understand the intention behind this chant is not to promote rape culture but to bring about unity. No one has even mentioned the precautions we take to sexual assault. We have many lights on at night, blue alarms that are always within sight, and a walking buddy service students can call upon to walk back to dorms at night.

    If anything, this media attention is doing more harm than good. Not only is it bringing this chant to more students than FROSH ever did, it places blame on UBC as a whole.

    No one has come up with a solution either. This entire thread criticizes UBC for having the chant yet no one has come up with an idea to do anything about it. A petition to punish the student leaders you say? What will that do? What long lasting effects does this have on UBC? Clearly there is a better answer. Say, maybe change the chant? You can not change what has already happened so instead of pointing fingers maybe put out ideas to better society.

    • Roberto Luongo

      It’s pretty obvious what they have to do. They should know their roles and shut their mouths. Don’t use ridiculous chants and they’ll be fine.

    • KC

      Um, that is like saying a cheer about lynching people or gay-bashing is meant to bring about unity. Sure, if you’re looking to unite only a specific subset of people at the expense of rape victims.

      • AnonymousStudent

        Like I said, there was no explicit meaning behind the words. It isn’t “about” promoting rape. It’s a bunch of words that gets people chanting. The chant itself was not specifically tailored to desensitize sexual assault. It just happened that these words fit. A simple solution to solve this is just to change the words.

        • Coen Not Cohen

          This is what they said at SMU too. What a laughable defense. You talk like the words are random, and have been chosen/arranged phonetically. This is ridiculous. As asinine as the chant is, it coherently promotes rape. Sometimes I think the Commerce curriculum really needs to be broader…..

          • AnonymousStudent

            then tell me, after reading that chant do you feel okay with rape? any person competent enough to enter UBC can differentiate between what the cheer is meant to do.

          • Coen Not Cohen

            if i was a first year female student, i’m pretty sure i would find it disturbing and chilling.

          • AnonymousStudent

            I was at FROSH and the girls were just as into it as the guys

          • Coen Not Cohen

            anyway, there is a mountain of evidence that racist or sexist jokes does lead to people to view these attitudes as socially acceptable. this should be obvious to you, as it is to the thousands of people who are appalled by what’s taken place at smu and ubc this week.

          • StevenDobbs

            so this IS about social engineering and being intolerant of speech you do not like. hmmm. Thanks for making your intent clear.

          • Coen Not Cohen

            Why, yes, I am intolerant of pro child rape speech. You got me on that one. And if recognizing that violent speech can normalize violence (and therefore may be limited) is social engineering, that’s fine too.

            If you and your child rape allies would like to go to the streets with your chants, feel free. But institutions may limit that speech, as any Sauder grad will find out when they graduate and go to work for a corporation. They won’t care for the child rape chants much there, either.

          • bjedwards

            Coen, when did you first realize that you were a nazi?

        • disqus_WPnSdGf4h1

          If it isn’t “about” promoting rape, why bother chanting it in the first place? There are infinitely better chants to promote unity and school spirit than the one that was chanted. What’s done is done, but in the very least, there should be punishments to indicate that this behaviour is unacceptable and not tolerated.

          I’m sure that punishing the offenders will have long lasting effects and will teach everybody a lesson that rape is NEVER a joke.

    • selonmoi

      “Everyone here seems to think that FROSH explicitly promotes rape. That is completely wrong as this cheer is meant to gather people together.”

      …in celebration of rape!

      You know you have a strong argument when it’s indistinguishable from a Sarah Silverman joke.

    • Kary Lao

      Let’s clear something about this. Promotion and reinforcement are two different things. No one said that FROSH in itself promoted or reinforced rape. You’re right in saying that the cheer, which *happened* at Frosh though, doesn’t promote rape – however, it DOES REINFORCE rape culture.

      That’s still a problem, don’t you think? And next up, you mentioning this particular cheer is meant to bring about unity – perhaps, but good intentions doesn’t mean that the result is always so. We can create unity without resorting to the degradation that these cheers can elicit.

      But thank you for encouraging progression and trying to promote solutions, rather than only punishment.

  • Shannon W.

    Absolutely reprehensible, and not just an opportunity but a responsibility for UBC and Sauder to stand up and show some leadership by not tolerating this.

    • Ali Babba

      Yes, that is exactly what a university should be, a place where we are intolerant of any idea that we do not like.

      Maybe you should apprentice to a trade instead of university. Critical thinking might not be the right future for you.

      • Sarah B

        So…you’re arguing that tolerance of rape is an integral part of liberal discourse? Are you high right now?

        • Ali Babba

          Tolerance of rape?

          I must have missed that part of the article, the part where people were being raped.

          Aside from your less than adequate reading comprehension, you clearly do not have much intellectual ability, Sarah.

          I suggest that university is not the place for you.

          • leonard

            if you think advocating the rape of underage girls demonstrated intellectual ability, maybe university is not the right place for you.

          • Sarah B

            Quite funny. I graduated from UBC a few years ago. You are clearly a troll.

  • ILovetheKenyanUsurper!

    I don’t even have words for how completely out of touch people who defend this cheer are. What is the point of this cheer? Some people have said that the comparison to racist jokes doesn’t work, but I think it actually does. What’s the point in these kinds of things? In these kinds of jokes? If it’s “not condoning rape” (or in the case of racist jokes, making fun of people of a particular race), what is the point? What is the point of leading a cheer specifically about sexually assaulting underage women without their consent? To be funny? How is that funny? Please explain to me how raping an underage woman is funny.

    • Ali Babba

      Its about as funny as fascism. Now go look in the mirror to see how funny you are.

      • Sarah B

        Back to poli sci, idiot. You’re calling this fascism? Climb down from your libertarian delusions and go look up the definition of fascism again. Hint: it’s not the public being outraged over a bunch of moronic kids blindly exposing the undercurrent of misogyny in western society. Ass.

      • ILovetheKenyanUsurper!

        You really need to work on your communication skills. I went and looked in the mirror, and besides being taken aback by how damned handsome I am, I didn’t really understand what you are talking about. Perhaps you should pull your head out. It’s much easier to talk to others that way.

  • Lamnidae

    This Jacqueline Chen girl must have one small-minded pea brain if she thinks that CUS needs to work on keeping the chant private next time around rather than making chants appropriate for students. The chant does nothing to invigorate school spirit nor does it make people lower their boundaries as Jeffrey Wong said in the article. And yes, Jeffrey, if you actually read the cheer, you would know that it does glorify rape. For such a supposedly great faculty at an amazing school, the idiots who represent Sauder in this situation are completely terrible at PR. None of these representatives take any responsibility for something they have supported for years and are only pissed because the chant came to light.

    • Steven I

      First of all, making it personal and name calling really doesn’t help matters at all. You don’t realize how much Jacqueline has given back the to Sauder and UBC communities as a whole. Secondly, steps are being taken to deal with the matter, and thats really all that can be done. FROSH is effectively a 3-day party. There isn’t much you can do about controlling what gets said and what doesn’t. If you went into any university sanctioned party and recorded everything that was said, don’t tell me you won’t find anything offensive. So please, everyone just move on.

      • Kary Lao

        While I don’t agree with the name-calling, the fact that it’s a party doesn’t excuse these cheers. And while we’re at it, yeah, there are tons and tons of activities that could be brought to light – but remind me how does that change the severity of what has happened here?

        • Steven I

          It doesn’t. There should be apologies and consequences, and every measure should be taken to eliminate the cheer. Where I have a problem is people are blowing this way out of proportion and calling fro the expulsion for FROSH leaders and CUS leadership, when it was just a stupid chant to being with. People say things they don’t mean all the time. Does that excuse stupid behaviour? Of course not. But if we expelled every student that has said something offensive, we wouldn’t have many students.

          • Kary Lao

            I agree that expelling FROSH leaders and CUS leadership isn’t productive or conducive to change. If you let people off the hook like that, you won’t be able to learn and we can’t continue to work at a positive environment.

            But people need to stop saying that this situation has been blown out of proportion – what has happened is quite serious, and needs to be addressed in a serious manner. If we start treating what was said as a joke, then we excuse the behaviour entirely. It’s got everyone tickled, so can you please respect that maybe the attention it has garnered is worthy?

          • Steven I

            It is being addressed in a serious manner. After Dean Helsley’s press conference yesterday, I am confident that he, along with UBC, will take every step necessary to install the appropriate consequences.

            By being blown out of proportion, I don’t mean treating the chant as a joke. I mean the personal attacks on students, whether it be through social media, hate mail, or even phone calls. Its getting to a point where instead of giving these people a chance to learn from their mistakes, all this hate is just pushing them further away. Why would they want to apologize to a community that won’t accept their apology and continually chastises them?

      • Lamnidae

        We’re talking about a chant organized by the leaders of FROSH who are chosen by CUS. This isn’t just something overheard in a random conversation. The leaders encouraged the students at FROSH to say the chant. I’m pretty sure it isn’t incredibly difficult to choose a more appropriate chant.

        I’m sure Jacqueline has done a lot for UBC since you don’t become co-chair of something without doing something helpful, but she clearly isn’t letting CUS take responsibility and hasn’t made tactful public remarks about the situation. She makes herself look terrible with the quote she offered.

        • Steven I

          A couple of things:
          1 – Yes, I agree with you that the CUS hasn’t done a good job mitigating the damage. I expected a more formal apology.
          2 – Theres a difference between the FROSH leaders, who initiated the chant on the bus, and the FROSH leadership (chosen by the CUS), who actually organize the event (Jacqueline and co). Initiating the chant on the bus is completely at the leaders’ discretion, and the FROSH leadership has absolutely no control over it. Do they know the chant exists? Probably. But other than saying “Don’t do the chant”, there wasn’t much they could do to stop it.
          3 – Remember the Ubyssey is pretty biased against Sauder. The interview didn’t really lend an opportunity for a formal apology, and the writer does really try and put Jacqueline in a bad light.

          Just an end note, by no means is this the fault of just the FROSH leaders. 99% of them really look out for their first-year students, and do an amazing job to make sure that everyone is safe and having fun.

          • selonmoi

            They *didn’t* even say “don’t do the chant.” They said “do the chant in private.”

            Did you even read the article?

          • Steven I

            We don’t know what they said. I’m just saying thats the full extent of action that the FROSH leadership could have taken. In other words, there’s nothing they could have done. The chant is done on the bus, at the FROSH leaders’ discretion. I can’t say for sure if it happens on every bus, every year.

    • Ali Babba

      You both have small minds

    • Kary Lao

      I wouldn’t go so far as to say Ms. Chen has a “small-minded pea brain” or that these individuals are idiots. What has happened here is a severe lapse in judgement, and while I’m not defending what has happened here (look at my comments throughout this board), I think you will find there are far greater idiots here on the comments board than these leaders who have been brought up to accept this environment. I’m willing to bet that the majority of Sauder students in general don’t debate these issues among themselves; I doubt it’s a topic that’s raised very often in the classes.

      What this is, though, is an opportunity to move forwards after proper apologies from the CUS have been done.

    • deletrius

      seems like she likes to pass the buck

  • guest

    my friend told me that they also had other dirty cheers like engineer cheers…etc. not only this one

    • Ali Babba

      so what

  • ponpon

    Being a Sauder student really sucks sometimes, as one who doesn’t care for strutting around in suits, being ridiculously obnoxious and arrogant towards other faculties while simultaneously being despised by them. And now, another heavy burden to bear along with the ‘Sauder prick’ label, just because of this stupid Frosh ‘tradition’. Does everyone seriously think that the chant (which no doubt isn’t unique to Sauder at all) means everyone in this large faculty endorses rape culture? No, I’m not supporting it in any way, but please, can you refrain from making sweeping generalizations of all Commerce students because of this event? It was hard enough as it was to interact with students from other faculties (which I truly wanted to do until I got tired of being shot down whenever I said I’m in commerce).

    I can’t shake off the thought that this really isn’t just a ‘Sauder thing’. Seriously, do other universities not have their share of dumb traditions and practices? I’m not saying it’s okay, but I also don’t think it’s okay to attack the commerce students for this. As a Frosh leader in a rowdy bus jam-packed with enthusiastic fellow leaders and Froshees, would you have thought to leave out the particular bus chant out of the dozen (similarly dirty ones) you heard last year in your own Frosh? Something like this isn’t easy to just think to ban beforehand; it happened to blow up like this, which is when accusatory fingers begin to point. It’s simple in hindsight to blame the Frosh organizers and leaders, but would anyone else in their position have been able to prevent it from happening?

    That said, I agree that the CUS’s public statement is lacking. They should have apologized and they shouldn’t be pushing the blame onto the Frosh leaders. But who would have known this would become such a huge outrage after years and years of that chant being sung in Frosh with no incident? This is just such a horrible situation for everyone in the UBC community, whether you’re directly involved in the fiasco or not.

    • Amanda

      You say this: “As a Frosh leader in a rowdy bus jam-packed with enthusiastic fellow leaders and Froshees, would you have thought to leave out the particular bus chant out of the dozen (similarly dirty ones) you heard last year in your own Frosh? Something like this isn’t easy to just think to ban beforehand.”

      Yes it is easy. I would have thought to ban it. And, as this comment section shows, a lot of other non-Sauder people would have thought to ban it. Why, you ask? Because we are decent human beings who are compassionate and sensitive enough to recognize that rape isn’t funny. Or that publicly chanting about rape in an audience where statistically there is a near certainty that someone in that audience has been raped is a bad idea. The fact that you can’t see that a normal person should have spoken out about that and taken steps to prevent it means that it looks like you have some blindspots that you might want to address and think about. You seem to be more enlightened than some, so there is hope for you. You just need to challenge yourself to be a better human being. If you do, I can assure you that people from other faculties will want to speak with you.

    • Matt G

      “Does everyone seriously think that the chant (which no doubt isn’t unique to Sauder at all) means everyone in this large faculty endorses rape culture?”

      No. At least, I’d hope not. But if your response to this is to defend the program instead of admitting that it needs some cultural changes, then you may be inadvertently enabling it.

      “I’m not saying it’s okay, but I also don’t think it’s okay to attack the commerce students for this.”

      It’s okay to criticize the people involved in this. It does reflect badly on the commerce program, UBC, and university students in general. As a university student at UBC, I’m appalled that this happened here, but instead of trying to defend the school’s reputation, it’s more important for us to condemn what happened and prevent it from happening again.

      “As a Frosh leader in a rowdy bus jam-packed with enthusiastic fellow leaders and Froshees, would you have thought to leave out the particular bus chant out of the dozen (similarly dirty ones) you heard last year in your own Frosh?”


      “Seriously, do other universities not have their share of dumb traditions and practices?”

      Of course they do. My undergrad was at Waterloo in engineering, and we certainly had our share of questionable traditions. However, comparing your traditions to the worst of other programs isn’t constructive. You might also be surprised at how tame other schools are: the most provocative chants in my frosh group were about poop and beer — I honestly can’t imagine the non-consent chant being used.

      “But who would have known this would become such a huge outrage after years and years of that chant being sung in Frosh with no incident?”

      The biggest outrage to me is that the chant went for years and years with no incident.

  • James

    Keep it out of public eye????????? The Chant shouldn’t have happened in the first place

  • Ali Babba

    “UBC officials to probe reports of frosh chant about non-consensual sex”

    OK now this is just getting extremely petty, narrow minded and dogmatic.

    What is next?

    Are they going to investigate some Kindergartners for racist hate speech for chanting “Eeny, meeny, miny, moe…”?

    What this really illustrates is that Universities are clearly not the place of free speech, and free thinking that they are supposed to be. They have become the opposite of what academia is supposed to be, the antithesis of critical thinking.

    They have become the bastion of political correctness, with enforcement of group think, a home for collectivists who oppose any sign of individuals who do not adhere to their approved way of thinking.

    Universities are now officially dead, The left have killed them. If Universities can not withstand the tiny challenge of hearing some silly juvenile chant issued by children, then they are now just pale imitations of themselves, good only for indoctrination.

    It is not this chant that threatens universities, it is the response to it by the official leadership, their demands to enforce correct thinking – this is the harbinger of the end of universities as places for learning.

    • Sarah B

      Oh look. A right wing troll. Tell us more about how this chant about rape is all about free speech. You’re a moron. Go look up what free speech means – it means free from governmental interference and it DOES NOT exempt anyone from the consequences of their speech. No one is being lynched, this is a purely verbal uproar. Get off your high horse.

      • Ali Babba

        I hear your mouth moving but your brain is not engaged.

    • Qin

      You have a right to say anything you want without persecution from the government. Unfortunately for you, universities are private institutions that you have no constitutional right to have access to.

    • Matt G

      You consider it a “harbinger of the end” of learning in universities that a student newspaper reported on orientation activities and incited commentary condemning chants about non-consensual underage sex? Since when does free speech mean that we must uphold the sanctity of traditional rape chants (while trying to hide them from the public)?

  • Qin

    As a Sauder student, I’d like to say that the CUS is a selfish cartel of resume-padders. The students involved are not representative of Sauder students.

  • Name

    I find it odd that some of the defenders of this chant are saying that the only thing making UBC look bad is the big uproar that critics of the chant are making. I think the big uproar is the only thing that makes UBC look GOOD in this situation. It shows that the majority of students have morals and are sensitive to issues (not to mention other peoples’ feelings) and hopefully future employers will see this and not judge every UBC grad by the actions of a few bad apples.

  • Alice

    “We let the groups know: if it happens in the group, it has to stay in the group.”
    So basically, if you wanna rape someone, as long as it stays within the group, it’s okay.

    “…but [the cheer] maybe gets people out of their personal boundaries and bubbles, you know?”
    Yes, because I feel so much closer to people after mockingly chanting about sexual assault.

    “According to multiple sources, the cheer has a long history at Sauder — perhaps as long as 10 or 20 years, according to Wang.”

    According to multiple sources, Christians have a long history of burning women they assumed to be witches at the stake, that doesn’t mean they should keep doing it.

  • Rodney Hilton

    This sort of crap cannot be tolerated. Those responsible should be expelled. Is this really where Canada’s future and academics are at??? I’m disgusted with the incidents that have occurred on Canadian Campuses the past two weeks.

  • Who Needs Facts

    How a university grad ends up working at McDonalds is starting to make sense now.

  • Heisenberg

    nice work – the most appalling thing was the women were chanting this as well, UBC a premier school? attracting the best? really – the future business leaders of tomorrow in action. lovely.

  • deletrius

    Commerce chants and gestures during first year pep rally were always smug imo. CUS president can’t stop them, lame.

  • Chase Armitage

    These AMS presidents are complete idiots. They fail to assume any level of responsibility for goings on in their Organization and apparently the best excuse they are able to muster is to play ignorant to real events based on completely immature and vile sentiments. I would revoke their fallacy of a presidency immediately and send these idiotic rich kids home to re learn the basics of life.

  • Alex Christie

    lol rape culture wtf is rape culture? I’m sure in Saudi Arabia where there is less rape than here they………..oh wait this is Canada and this is a first world problem. The chant also says you go to jail so I don’t see a problem. I see a problem with over sensitive white knight feminists who really have no solution’s to problem they just spit out key words like; patriarchy, racist, hyper capitalists (whatever the fuck that means) and oppression. Women in the west are far from oppressed unlike in Africa or anywhere else where women are dog meat but so are a lot of men but no one cares about them. Feminists always the first ones to pull the censorship card.

    • urooba

      Firstly, “white knight feminists who…spit out key words like; patriarchy, racist, hyper capitalists (whatever the fuck that means) and oppression” – guess what, I used those terms and I’m a woman of colour. And why wouldn’t I? As a Pakistani-Canadian-visibly-Muslim woman, these social milieu are my lived reality.

      Secondly, if you’re going to discuss the oppression of women around the world, don’t you fucking dare blanket the rest of the world with sweeping generalizations like that. You’re criticizing “white knight feminists” but guess what, many of them resort to these same sweeping generalizations. (Imperial feminism and “liberating Afghani women”, anyone? etc.) I myself am critical of mainstream white feminism, as the voices of women of colour, queer folk, etc. are often marginalized.

      Finally, I have never been one to compare issues of social injustice. I care about what is happening in my own community of Vancouver to, say, my birthplace of Karachi, Pakistan.

      p.s. you have no credibility whatsoever as a white male to decide that there is no such thing as rape culture. (By the way, sexual assault and rape happens in nearly every single country in the world. To those who think North American societies don’t have a high number of rape cases – I’d suggest checking out your local rape crisis center, if you’re not going to believe statistics).

      • Alex Christie

        Of course I don’t have credibility white men never have credibility and are clearly never reasonable and because false rape cases are obviously NEVER reported.
        As a muslim you are a hypocrite because your religion says in it’s doctrine that women are LESS than men so you go back to Pakistan and you flout that feminist crap there and see if you don’t get beaten. Here you get some trolling and some critical thinkers who see through your whiny bullshit. Wake up! but of course feminists and women are ALWAYS right about every case of rape and abuse. You see the double standard here? Probably not but thought I might point it out anyways.
        You should also be ashamed for claiming to be apart of a religion where being a woman means that you are property and that you have no say in any matter and can be beaten and raped on a whim. Not so here despite some kids who make a song that offends you there’s really no reason to lynch them. Look to your own culture and see the demons there before you talk of “patriarchy” here.

        • urooba

          ^You are the microcosm of everything that is wrong with the world. Please, like any of this fucking bullshit you spewed here isn’t the shit I hear every day – about women, about feminism, about Islam. (P.s. are you happy with the way the world currently is? It functions on your logic, asshole).

          “Look to your own culture and see the demons there before you talk of ‘patriarchy’ here.” Fuck you, good sir, how do you know what my fucking culture is? Ever heard of the concept of diaspora?

          And it’s real intelligent of you to make sweeping generalizations yet again, of 1 billion people around the world. Shows the pea-sized brain you’ve got.

          p.s. I no longer wish to engage with you in this discussion.

          • Alex Christie

            No have real argument because and only insults which is typical of a feminist position. You are hypocrite a racist and a sexist but it’s ok for you because you because you’re a woman of colour. Obviously you’ve never read your own holy book if you did you’d realize that you are one of a billion slaves to a supernatural dictator.

  • Guest

    As a recruiter I can tell you I won’t be hiring Sauder students…past or present given this has been going on for 20 years. Sorry to have to generalize all students but this has been cascading down from the top and I would not want to hire individuals who completely lack true leadership and critical thinking skills, integrity and judgement. Those downplaying it don’t seem to realize the business world is watching and finding the CUS and Sauder to be woefully lacking.

  • Jack

    You little fascist control freaks are sick. In Canada, the Charter recognizes that people ahve freedom of expression that is limited only by law. A law is a statute or custom. Customs are anciently settled principles dating from before the time of Richard I (1189, IIRC). Statutes are Acts of Parliament, the Parliament at Ottawa or at Victoria or at London. What law or custom was breached by the chant? is such a law or custom reasonably justified in a free and democratic society?

    • tinyorc

      Oh look, it’s a member of the FREEEE SPEEEEEECH brigade. Nowhere in the article is anyone saying that the chant should be illegal or that people should be prosecuted for singing it. People are suggesting that having a chant that makes a joke out of sexual assault and rape creates a hostile environment for survivors of sexual assault and rape (that’s about 1 in 4 women, btw, so not an insignificant number) and that the university probably doesn’t want its students to be associated with this shit.

      But don’t get me wrong, FROSH leaders can continue singing the chant all they want. Because that’s free speech. And people on the Internet can say that they think the chant is gross and damaging and completely inappropriate as a staple of a university induction week. Because that is also free speech!

      But you’re right. This article is clearly FASCISM.

      • Jack

        I don’t know if you are naive or disingenuous, or maybe a little bit of both. The word “inappropriate” is an administrator weasel-word for conduct that is punishable under the University’s misconduct policies.

        ” makes a joke out of sexual assault and rape creates a hostile environment for survivors of sexual assault and rape (that’s about 1 in 4 women, btw, so not an insignificant number)”

        No, making a joke is good for a laugh. There is abundant evidence that laughter is good for people. Unfortunately, mentally ill people often lack a sense of humour and are jealous of those who can laugh at pretty much anything. Do you have a citation for that “1 in 4 women” statistic? 1 in 4 women have had someone convicted of sexually assaulting them? No? Well, then, I am sure you are aware that everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of competent jurisdiction, so it is fundamentally inappropriate to use anything but conviction-based statistics to quantify sexual assaults—there is no competent finding that an assault has occurred absent a competent judicial proceeding.

        Further, there is a huge irony in all of the talk about consent. The only reason people are acculturated to care about consent is because they are exposed to K-12 education, without consent. If children cannot consent to sex, how can they consent to being brainwashed into believeing in consent? Consent is a fiction of contract law—it has no coherent ontology, except that of the violence of superiors who will use that violence against those who refuse to believe in their pet fairy-tale. Essentially, children are mind-raped into believing bodily rape is a problem. Ever seen dogs mate? They get the consent in triplicate carbon copy, one for both parties, one for their lawyer!

        • Qin

          Consequences from UBC does not curtail one’s freedom of speech as it is not a basic human right to attend UBC.

          • Jack

            Uh, post-secondary education is indeed a right recognized in international law, as well as at common law. There is jurisprudence from the Court of Appeal level in Alberta deciding that the Charter applies to Albertan universities, so it applies to Canadian Universities, too. The issue is that Universities have no power to constrain speech, in law, but in fact, they just do whatever the fuck they want. Largely because useful idiots like you tolerate it.

  • darrell

    After the outrage over a similar chant at SMU what were the students at Sauder thinking , do those students live in caves with no connection to society . These are our future leaders , and this chants have been going on for 20 years , it seems the mafia is not the only group with the code of omerta .

    • ColinR

      It didn’t come up on their Facebook newsfeed, so they had no way of knowing about it.

  • yyj72

    not cool. not funny. just lame.

  • Dora


    I certainly hope that this incident (at the very LEAST) occurred at the same time as the story re: St. Mary’s Uni in Halifax. Otherwise it’d been damn well IDIOTIC to have continue with the chant while another school is getting slammed for its inappropriateness.

    Read the news, kids!

    • thedemonhog

      It was indeed simultaneous.

  • Sofa_King96
  • John H. Morris

    I’m a former commerce student at University of Toronto, and am now in software sales.

    It would be interesting to get an anthropological analysis of why Frosh Week needs to be “transgressive” (a word used in the comments below) . . . I note that that the celebration of the transgressive started on the left; it was a bad idea on the left, it’s a bad idea anywhere.

    A transgressive Frosh Week is a content-less “rebel-without-a-cause” faux experience. Young students come to University for many reasons; all too often they are exploited for fun by the morally deficient. I notice in particular the shame-free recounting by Commerce students association reps that the “chant should have been private”. In other words, “do something transgressive, but don’t get caught”.

    Is this not a recipe for kickbacks or embezzlement or fraud, after one graduates? Which are also transgressive? We see such reports all too often in the business press.

    What is UBC teaching anyway? Is it not obvious that the first experience of Commerce newbies is a profoundly disorienting “tutorial in amorality”? Which apparently has been going on for years . . . and in fairness in many other schools too.

    We see quite a few excuses in the comments here, most tellingly that “it really doesn’t matter, they don’t mean it, it’s just blowing off steam etc.” And we see most of the criticism coming from a feminist perspective. Which is fair enough.

    But what about what is likely a significant minority of religious students, or perhaps non-religious but culturally conservative students, including Evangelical Christians, Catholic Christians, liberal Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others? I suspect that most of such students really want nothing to do with “transgressive and stupid Frosh week activities”. Maybe the whole thing is just wrong, wrong, wrong. Rape is wrong. Frosh week that celebrates rape is wrong. Get rid of it.

    This sort of thing has been going on for a hundred years or more. There’s no fundamental reason it has to continue. For the children of the elite of society (and if you’re going to UBC, that includes you) to carry on like this is shameful. And unnecessary.

  • nelle

    That’s not the only offensive cheer sang at FROSH, to be honest. I thought it was rather disturbing and ruined FROSH for me, frankly.

  • Bill Clinton

    How about a public hanging of those who were responsible for the chant?

    The world would be a better place without them.

  • eccl

    FROSH: would a chant that goes “Fixate Rifles On Staff Heads” be
    acceptable? That chant is not acceptable… that chant promotes rape
    and rape culture, and there should be total discipline, perhaps full
    suspension for those who led that chant.

  • Anon

    You know what? It’s pretty darn unfair to blame the entire faculty, as many people seem to be doing (“You should have taken action to stop them!”). How could students who were not present at Frosh have done anything?? They wouldn’t have had a clue about the happenings of Frosh! Or if you’re like me, you were either not paying attention to the chants or didn’t understand them when they were screamed on a noisy bus (not saying I attended this year, but I did go to a Frosh). Give it a rest, gosh. And if you’re going to attack the leaders, I think all the previous years’ leaders should shoulder the blame too, then? It’s not like anyone did anything differently this year, if the chant has been going on for years.

    • Kary Lao

      No one’s blaming the entire faculty. If anything, you and the rest of your supporters are blowing this out of proportion and throwing it back on the rest of us. As for shouldering the blame – do you know the definition of “responsibility”?

      Grow up, and realize why this is an important issue.

  • Reggie Testy

    Please list the names of these so called FROSH Leaders. We surely do not want them working for our company.

  • Reggie Testy

    Please list *ALL* those students names who participated in the chant, on or off campus and on public buses. Also, please use your smartphone and video record the incident and upload to youtube with an anonymous alias. With the public’s help, we can prevent these low life from succeeding in life. No excuse for chants like this.

  • ColinR

    A business school, teaching kids about leadership and managing, can’t manage their own kids. Amazing.

  • Taylor Hulsmans

    Unless one operates under the pre tense that going to jail is a good thing, this chant increases the awareness of the fact that having sex with someone under the age of 16 and more than 2 years apart is breaking the law. So this is not an endorsement of rape but simply a chant illustrating the fact that some 20 yr old lesbian chick can’t sneak into a 15 yr old girls bedroom with a strap on.

    Free speech + free will -> we can’t use it while simultaneously assuming others don’t. Thats a double standard ultimately ending in hypocrisy

  • U_wan_pray_game

    The only place an actual rape culture exists is a prison.